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View Full Version : Jujitsu vs Catch Wrestling



Dstokes
Jul 08, 2008, 10:10 PM
I noticed there is a bit of a war between BJJ and Catch Wrestling in terms of which is better. I don't know much about either but for starters what is the difference between the 2?

wulfsun
Jul 26, 2008, 12:41 AM
One is believed to have originated in Japan an another is a collection of European/ North American wrestling techniques.

Fatman
Jul 26, 2008, 08:26 AM
Farmer Burns, the Father of Catch Wrestling, claimed that catch is superior to jiu-jitsu (BJJ was not developed while he was still alive). Obviously he was biased, but catch wrestling developed many throws and techniques similar to jiu-jitsu.

Check out Burns' catch wrestling instructional for free here:

www.sandowplus.co.uk (click "Burns" on the menu)

Or pay Matt Furey $35 for the same course :)

Journeyman
Jul 26, 2008, 10:31 AM
Check out Burns' catch wrestling instructional for free here:

www.sandowplus.co.uk (http://www.sandowplus.co.uk) (click "Burns" on the menu)

Or pay Matt Furey $35 for the same course :)

lol so typical of Furey

wulfsun
Jul 26, 2008, 01:38 PM
Catch wrestling and judo

Although catch wrestling did not normally include kicks and blows, it is credited as one of the two disciplines involved in one of the 20th century's first major cross-cultural clash of styles in Martial Arts, occurring between the American catch wrestler Ad Santel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Santel) and the Japanese Tokugoro Ito (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tokugoro_Ito&action=edit&redlink=1), a 5th degree black belt in Judo.
The match in 1914 was one between two prime representatives of their respective crafts, Ad Santel was the World Light Heavyweight Champion in catch wrestling while Tokugoro Ito claimed to be the World Judo Champion. Santel defeated Ito and proclaimed himself World Judo Champion. The response from Jigoro Kano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigoro_Kano)'s Kodokan was swift and came in the form of another challenger, 4th degree black belt Daisuke Sakai. Santel, however, still defeated the Kodokan Judo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodokan_Judo) representative.
The Kodokan tried to stop the legendary hooker by sending men like 5th degree black belt Reijiro Nagata (who Santel defeated by TKO). Santel also drew with 5th degree black belt Hikoo Shoji. The challenge matches stopped after Santel gave up on the claim of being the World Judo Champion in 1921 in order to pursue a career in full time professional wrestling. Although Tokugoro Ito avenged his loss to Santel with a choke, thus setting the record between them at 1-1, official Kodokan representatives proved unable to imitate Ito's success. Just as Ito was the only Japanese judoka to overcome Santel, Santel was ironically the only Western catch-wrestler on record as having a win over Ito, who also regularly challenged other grappling styles.
The impact of these performances on Japan was immense. The Japanese were fascinated by the European form of catch wrestling and a steady stream of Japanese fighters traveled to Europe in order to either participate in various tournaments or to learn catch wrestling at European schools such as Billy Riley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Riley)'s Snake Pit in Wigan, England.

olinek
Jul 26, 2008, 02:49 PM
Brazilian Jujitsu is NOT jujitsu.. it is based on JUDO. Jujitsu is far older than both.

wulfsun
Jul 26, 2008, 04:48 PM
Olinek, why don't you just state that jujitsu is the original art from which judo was founded on. Prof. Kano thought that most of the techniques from jujitsu at that time were to dangerous to be taught.

olinek
Jul 27, 2008, 12:56 PM
Olinek, why don't you just state that jujitsu is the original art from which judo was founded on. Prof. Kano thought that most of the techniques from jujitsu at that time were to dangerous to be taught.

Every martial art could be traced back to an older one I suppose. What is your point though?

wulfsun
Aug 02, 2008, 03:37 AM
That was the point.

Jay Cooper
Aug 12, 2008, 02:52 PM
BJJ and Judo are both schools of JJ which should end the asinine debate about "BJJ is just Judo". BJJ has closer affinities to Fusen Ryu school of JJ, which was absorbed in the Kodokan.

It hardly invalidates it as a combat art in either case so I can't see the issue apart from intellectual snobbery.

Now to the OP's question....I would go with JJ for one reason and one reason alone and that is because it is easier to find legitimate instruction. "Catch Wrestling" is a hybrid art that has no structure to speak of (although there is a fine movement afoot at www.scientificwrestling.com (http://www.scientificwrestling.com) to create such a standard) and there is no way to ensure the instructor you are learning from has a pedigree. Tony Cecchine is an example of such a dubious instructor...his stuff may not be without value, but he is NOT a Catch Wrestler.

Whatever style you choose they are both tremendous for fitness, self-protection and fun.

Fatman
Aug 13, 2008, 02:45 AM
BJJ and Judo are both schools of JJ which should end the asinine debate about "BJJ is just Judo". BJJ has closer affinities to Fusen Ryu school of JJ, which was absorbed in the Kodokan.

It hardly invalidates it as a combat art in either case so I can't see the issue apart from intellectual snobbery.

But... nobody is arguing that BJJ is Judo.

Judo is a sport much more than a martial art. It has evolved for the purpose of athletic competition. This does not, as you said, validate or invalidate it as a "combat" art. But it is primarily a competitive sport.

BJJ is also a competitive sport, albeit its marketers do try and pass it off as "the ultimate art for street fighting". It does have more similar elements to judo than traditional JJ, but it is NOT judo. Anyway, the similarities between these three martial arts are so numerous that it's very tough to say where one ends and the other begins.

Primarily, let us not forget this, they are SPORTS, intended for COMPETITION. Same with wrestling (I have no knowledge or experience with catch wrestling apart from what I've read in books, so I won't offer an opinion on this).

Jay Cooper
Aug 13, 2008, 04:31 PM
But... nobody is arguing that BJJ is Judo.

Actually that is pretty much exactly what olinek said!


Judo is a sport much more than a martial art. It has evolved for the purpose of athletic competition. This does not, as you said, validate or invalidate it as a "combat" art. But it is primarily a competitive sport.

I agree...to a point. The Kodokan was seen by many as a pared down JJ (or as some put it "Ju jitsu with the deadly stuff removed"), but this reduction in supposedly deadly moves meant that it could be practiced safely and thereby become more immediately usable in a combative scenario.

Interestingly Judo defeated all other comers at the 1886 Police championships to become the "official" art of the service because of this very fact


BJJ is also a competitive sport, albeit its marketers do try and pass it off as "the ultimate art for street fighting". It does have more similar elements to judo than traditional JJ, but it is NOT judo. Anyway, the similarities between these three martial arts are so numerous that it's very tough to say where one ends and the other begins.

pretty much what I said above but swap "BJJ" for "Judo" and leave out the bits about 1886!

In addition It is worth noting that BJJ did infact earn it's pedigree "on the cobbles", and that most of the earlier matches HAD to end with submission. The sporting BJJ is largely a result of Carlos/Rolls branching out away from Helio...hence the you will see GJJ and BJJ.....same thing, slightly different emphasis


Primarily, let us not forget this, they are SPORTS, intended for COMPETITION. Same with wrestling (I have no knowledge or experience with catch wrestling apart from what I've read in books, so I won't offer an opinion on this) .

I don't really see anyone arguing differently....but I will add a caveat. It is the METHOD in which they are trained that can be considered sporting rather than the art itself.

Combat sports are unique in that they are a way to preserve wartime skills without killing each other. This is the origin of fencing, kendo, archery and shooting. Unarmed methods are the same (think back to pacratium in Greece).

Rickson Gracie once summed it up well for me..."when we fight for money I will stop when the referee tells me. When we fight for real I stop when I want to"