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View Full Version : is wing chun good for self defense or fighting?



plancheismine
Oct 29, 2006, 10:42 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_chun#Centreline
they believe in like straight punches, not really any hooks because it is easy to defend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewZEUp7TE1A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuH-GYUHyQw&mode=related&search=
just kind of blocking the punches, and swatting, and slapping....got fast hands but i don't think the punches are powerful.
I think just simple blocking, ducking, and swatting away punches like in boxing would be good....

black mariah
Oct 29, 2006, 11:20 PM
No. No it's not. You try slapping a 6'3" 250lb dude and tell me how effective it is. Also, that "centerline" stuff is utter shite. They can believe all they want, but anyone that has an IQ higher than their shoe size KNOWS Wing Chun (and its variants) are total crap.

Personally, I'll take ippon seoinage and several kicks in the face FTW.

Moonduck
Oct 31, 2006, 10:46 PM
No. No it's not. You try slapping a 6'3" 250lb dude and tell me how effective it is. [/qoute]

Tell that to a sumo wrestler.

[quote]Also, that "centerline" stuff is utter shite. They can believe all they want, but anyone that has an IQ higher than their shoe size KNOWS Wing Chun (and its variants) are total crap.

Trolling sucks. If you are going to make such a strong point, be prepared to back it up with, y'know, explanation. I can say "Mashed potatoes suck!" all day long and it won't mean a thing until I explain why they suck.


Personally, I'll take ippon seoinage and several kicks in the face FTW.

Because an ippon seoinage can't be stopped simply by grabbing the thrower's belt, hooking the legs, etc...

EvilElfMaster
Nov 01, 2006, 10:55 PM
Pedro Rizzo is a black black in Wing Chun

Get_Money
Nov 21, 2006, 01:34 PM
NO way. Maybe against someone who doesnt know how to fight AT ALL. Learn how to box and wrestle.

Phil
Dec 17, 2006, 12:36 PM
Hi folks,

things like "wing chun and selfdefense" have already been discussed on german martial arts boards. i will try to give you a very short summary.

if you want to train wc so why shouldnt you do that. but never expext too much of any fighting or selfdefense system. if your oponent is a skilled streetfighter he (or she ;-) ) will blow you away like nothing.

for me there are systems which are more effective or faster too learn (or just much cheaper. in germany you pay about 30 euro for one month of training. thats about 30 dollar. ) take lessons in krav maga, ju-jutsu, or something like that and choose the one you like most.

Greetings

Phil

Moonduck
Dec 17, 2006, 02:43 PM
if your oponent is a skilled streetfighter he (or she ;-) ) will blow you away like nothing.


The above is true with just about any martial art. An experienced street fighter will have more experience with the support skills and attributes that far too few schools treach - timing, footwork, distancing, and shock absorption.

In short, the street fighter is used to taking a punch, and has spent more time landing them as well. The average martial artist spends most of his time throwing very speedy, technically solid strikes at... air.

hagler
Dec 21, 2006, 05:38 AM
i suppose it is all about confidence and not panic when it goes "off" ,i myself know in from expeirences that a nice straight punch will always beat a arc-type punch ( if you get hit by a left hook more fool you for letting your foe get in that range to throw such sort of shot, plus "high kicks F%*K that if you are not of lighting speed you can find yourself open and off-balence myself prefare low-kicks which do equal damage, plus too many people stand back and admire the shot they have thrown and come unstuck when someone has crossed that "line" and its "you or them" you punch, kick,knee,butt,bite,gouge till there is no tomorow and they are not getting back up (not for 5 mins anyway) ....only my opinion

Moonduck
Dec 21, 2006, 08:29 PM
Most people can load a lot more power into a hook than they can a straight punch. that said, a hook is harder to perform properly, and harder to land. The range has to be just right.

Personally, I'd much rather land a hook that a cross or even a power straight lead. The hook takes work to set up though, the straight shots don't.

CombatStrength
Dec 22, 2006, 07:31 AM
I agree - the difference between the average WC student and a streetfighter is cold, hard experience. The level of aggression in a streetfighter is formidable to all but the most skilled WC practitioner. In WC, to do it properly, you must always be relaxed and this takes a lot of mind control. Imagine someone rushing at your legs or throwing a kick to the head, with every intention of smashing your brains out - that is where most WC training would let people down.. this is just not covered..

That said, I've seen WC schools where they do frequent full contact sparring (with padding) and these guys would do ok i reckon, since they practice their speed and aggression/dominance..

Moonduck
Dec 22, 2006, 11:33 AM
It's a fundamental logic fault with almost all MA training. Say you're practicing escapes from a choke hold. How do you do it in the normal MA class? We've all been there. Your partner walks up to you and calmly places his hands on your neck, and then doesn't offer an ounce of resistance during the practice.

That's bullshit. You will NEVER be in a situation where you are seriously being assaulted by someone calm.

I will never forget the first time I took a self-defense course from a guy that really knew what he was doing. When time came to actually practice the technique for real, he got red int he face, grabbed on hard, and yelled at the top of his lungs. I went from being ready to do all sorts of harm to completely surprised because I wasn't expecting the violence of the move or the (fake) emotional intensity. It was one of the best demonstrations I've ever seen of what is wrong with modern MA.

I have a coupla friends that come over and train with me. I'm not some black belt or anything, but we get together and trade techniques. Everybody has something to learn, and something to teach. When we spare, we do it after lifting weights, doing cardio, whatever. Heart rates are up, control is sometimes iffy, and we're beat or really fired up (depending on the intensity of the workout). In other words, it better simulates a real encounter. Sure, it's not the safest thing in the world, but precious few activities are safe that will improve your life.

Every once in while, get together with a training partner somewhere safe and have them really just scream at you as they attack. Even better, just have your partner scream randomly at some point in a training session. The more unexpected the better. It may well happen to you in a streetfight, and you want to be ready.

You also want to resist when someone has gotten a given move down. Sure, let em practice once of twice to get the technique, but then you should progressively make it tougher to pull off. More than once I've wound up on the ground tied up in a grapple (or just tossed over the moon) with an instructor or partner in resisted drills. Good stuff.

Like I was told by one of the best instructors I've trained with, "You're training to fight, not dance."

CombatStrength
Dec 23, 2006, 12:18 AM
I also really enjoy the scrappy sparring.. it's an excellent work out and definitely toughens you up..

I think it has to be said that MA training has to be a mix of controlled drills, careful study of technique, and then some regular all out brawls :D

The screaming technique is a good one.. i can see how that would really engage the participants..

Cheers

hagler
Dec 23, 2006, 03:05 AM
my sifu says that when your training with your partner every no and then take it to the edge but dont go over the edge just get that feel now and then and if you train like a "happy shopper" meaning when your doing your drills "pak sau ,lop sau ect" your not 100% on the job and talking about what your having tea ect well when it goes off on the street you wont have that same reaction , i personally like that bit of pain when someone paks you hard ,its good sh*t

Moonduck
Dec 23, 2006, 04:39 PM
Exactly, if you don't take it to the edge, you will never know how your body will react if it ever happens for real. Sure, you can't know exactly you'll react even with this sort of training. You'll at least be less surprised.

Hagler, it sounds like you've got a good sifu. "Happy shopper" is a killer way of describing that attitude. What style are you training in?

CombatStrength
Dec 23, 2006, 05:23 PM
What do you guys think about the sensitivity training (e.g. chi sau)?
Personally, after practising WC for 18 months I found that my arms seem to just know where to go. It feels like you are almost creating a shield. I haven't done any other style so I don't know how it compares, but it is a pretty cool thing.. thoughts?

Moonduck
Dec 23, 2006, 05:33 PM
I've read "how" to do it, but never been taught. We play around similar drills, and find them to be a great way to increase proprioception. I would love to get meaningful instruction on chi sau.

CombatStrength
Dec 23, 2006, 07:35 PM
Yeah there's a lot to know to do it right.. and then it's just all practice of course.. nothing beats that :)..
i'd suggest a dvd or something but it's not really the same..

the main thing was to relax.. forget about the wrists.. think shoulders into elbows... stay well grounded.. frequently do sudden balance tests by removing the pressure.. attack centreline.. keep the core solid.. also try while blindfolded... vary from very relaxed to attack mode..
HTH..
it's good stuff!

Moonduck
Dec 24, 2006, 10:14 AM
I frequently do proprioceptive drills with my eyes closed. It greatly aids with body sensitivity. Then again, I'm near-sighted anyway, and don't spar or drill with glasses on. I don't have a choice but to work "unfocused".

hagler
Dec 25, 2006, 02:31 AM
i am only on level 1 in jkd so i have not done that drill but i enjoy the hubud drills and can understand where it is going

CombatStrength
Dec 25, 2006, 06:16 AM
What does hubud involve?

hagler
Dec 25, 2006, 07:12 AM
here is a link so you can see it explained properly but you can use all sorts of arm bars,eye jabs of "hubud"

Moonduck
Dec 25, 2006, 09:31 AM
Hubud is awesome, and is one of my favourites. Did it quite a bit back when I did JKD. I've tried to get my current partner to do it, but I'm having a rough time getting him into the flow. It doesn't help that it has been ten years since I did it seriously =P

Your link didn't come through, hagler.

desperado11288
Jun 21, 2007, 01:03 AM
Just an interesting thought...I play capoeira, which isn't exactly renowned for its street applications. The class is broken into a warmup, techniques and drills, and then a "roda" where the "game" is played...it's somewhat similar to light-contact sparring, so you get a feel for range and to watch out for sweeps, but in most cases you won't catch a heel to the face. However, every once in awhile you play a game called "warming up for the cold shower" (long story behind the name) which is more or less an all-out fight, and not necessarily only using capoeira techniques, you can get punched, choked, and smacked around pretty good. It definitely lends some weight to the art, and absolutely makes you think twice about the art being street-ineffective. Anyway, moral of my story is that if you're training a martial art to fight, then really mixing it up occasionally, and using techniques outside what is taught by your style, is the only way you're going to be prepared for what you may encounter down a dark alley.

Big Jew
Jun 22, 2007, 02:33 PM
I train at both mma and Capoeira . Been enjoying crossing the Capoeira techniques into mma sparring.The escapes and surprises with that come with Capoeira have boosted my fighting exponentally. Mixing ginga movement into fighting stances gives more then an advantage....
Not trying to toot my horn but I move very differently then everyone else at mma. I do pratice Win Chung there and can close my eyes when I get a rythym going with a good partner.

I don't think I'll be working any take downs in the roda though unless I was to work out a special session with a another Cap. player who wants to try to mix it up.

Sepanto
Jun 23, 2007, 07:03 AM
I train at both mma and Capoeira . Been enjoying crossing the Capoeira techniques into mma sparring.The escapes and surprises with that come with Capoeira have boosted my fighting exponentally. Mixing ginga movement into fighting stances gives more then an advantage....
Not trying to toot my horn but I move very differently then everyone else at mma. I do pratice Win Chung there and can close my eyes when I get a rythym going with a good partner.

I don't think I'll be working any take downs in the roda though unless I was to work out a special session with a another Cap. player who wants to try to mix it up.

I love involving Capoeira, espcially for things such as escaping a tight spot with cartwheels and such, or getting out of a joint lock with a roll.

Sepanto
Jul 03, 2007, 12:43 AM
You also want to resist when someone has gotten a given move down. Sure, let em practice once of twice to get the technique, but then you should progressively make it tougher to pull off. More than once I've wound up on the ground tied up in a grapple (or just tossed over the moon) with an instructor or partner in resisted drills. Good stuff.

."
Actually at our karate classes we normally do the no resistance only 2-3 times, after that it's generally taking things. By doing so we've actually refuted many drills which were believed to be "perfect takedowns". I personally invented a "new way" to get out of a choke, by (assuming you're choked from the front) rolling back and whilst goikng down going to an armbar, which was later refuted by moving to the side which was later refuted by me going at an angle .....

As you see, I agree that resisted drills are the best.

Fatman
Jul 03, 2007, 03:08 AM
You need to use unresisted movement to learn the techniques properly. Otherwise you're not going to get anywhere with learning the moves and throws (I guess the same applies in striking-oriented sports). I always hated working with new guys wo were scared of falling and rolling (when one doesn't know how to roll the body naturally resists the opposing motion). You need to learn many techniques, then be able to pick out the ones thay you're really good at and focus on getting them down pat. The best fighters usually master a handful of techniques, but can employ them from any angle and against any opponent. The same concept applies both to sports and real-life situations.

However, once you've learned the techniques, training against resistance (sparring) is neccessary. Otherwise you're just learning throws and locks for the sake of knowing them. Textbook-perfect techniques are lovely to watch, but a match or a fight rarely ever go that way.

Deano
Jul 17, 2007, 01:40 AM
No. No it's not. You try slapping a 6'3" 250lb dude and tell me how effective it is. Also, that "centerline" stuff is utter shite. They can believe all they want, but anyone that has an IQ higher than their shoe size KNOWS Wing Chun (and its variants) are total crap.

Personally, I'll take ippon seoinage and several kicks in the face FTW.


It's called "self defence" not "self beat the crap out of my opponent".

For all you "no it's crap do boxing". Actually learn the meaning of self-defence. The idea is to protect yourself. They are all the right answer and they are all the wrong answer.

"80% of fights end in grappling". How is that big buff body builder going to kill you in a bear hug if he can't catch you or if he's been poked in the eyes or copped a nice blow to the ribs (everyone's vulnerability)? He won't.


Boxing is designed to beat your opponent phsyically. In Wing Chun, a well aimed blow to the disable your opponent while you flee IS beating your opponent. You've protected your life and those around you. That's the best you can get out of something that's designed to defend.


If you're wanting to fight and beat your opponent senseless, then the answer is "wing chun will be as good as you allow yourself to be".

Try all the arts. Pick the one you love.

Deano
Jul 17, 2007, 01:44 AM
In short, the street fighter is used to taking a punch, and has spent more time landing them as well. The average martial artist spends most of his time throwing very speedy, technically solid strikes at... air.


It's called sparring.

I don't know about you but my partner isn't composed of air. We both take some nasty hits from each other often. With/without sparring gloves etc.

Fatman
Jul 18, 2007, 01:05 PM
It is a solid point about martial arts schools and real-life situations, though. No matter how physical you get during sparring it's not going to reflect a fight in the street. After all, you probably don't knock your sparring partner down and continue to kick him in the head during training (at least I hope not... especially on a regular basis).

People who are good at a martial art are usually overconfident when faced with a real fight because they (erroneously) assume that training helps in situations such as this. It does help, but not in the way they assume. It's very much like the analogy with the bodybuilder (assuming bodybuilders are strong - most aren't): a big, strong guy has an advantage in a fight over a weaker opponent, but it doesn't mean the weaker guy won't kick his ass. A trained martial artist might have an advantage in a street fight, but it's a marginal advantage at best, and my money would always be on the experienced street fighter. Why? It's simple: a martial artist expects a sparring session, the street fighter fights to avoid having his ribs and teeth kicked in.

Sepanto
Jul 18, 2007, 02:36 PM
It is a solid point about martial arts schools and real-life situations, though. No matter how physical you get during sparring it's not going to reflect a fight in the street. After all, you probably don't knock your sparring partner down and continue to kick him in the head during training (at least I hope not... especially on a regular basis).

People who are good at a martial art are usually overconfident when faced with a real fight because they (erroneously) assume that training helps in situations such as this. It does help, but not in the way they assume. It's very much like the analogy with the bodybuilder (assuming bodybuilders are strong - most aren't): a big, strong guy has an advantage in a fight over a weaker opponent, but it doesn't mean the weaker guy won't kick his ass. A trained martial artist might have an advantage in a street fight, but it's a marginal advantage at best, and my money would always be on the experienced street fighter. Why? It's simple: a martial artist expects a sparring session, the street fighter fights to avoid having his ribs and teeth kicked in.

I lost several teeth in sparring... and dislocated my shoulder. I must say the few street-fightes i've been in (Ivery few, less than 5) all ended by one guy grabbing something and using it as a weapon.

cheesedog
Jul 18, 2007, 04:00 PM
I've had my nose broken twice and two ribs cracked in sparring. Haven't lost any teeth(yet!) but I accidently popped a sparring partner's eardrum with a palm strike once.

Fatman
Jul 19, 2007, 02:23 PM
Oh, sparring is far from injure-free. Although loss of teeth in sparring is not something one sees every day :) Getting your teeth knocked out in sparring is the result of unskilled opponents/newbs who cannot control their movement and strikes, so instead of having a carefully controlled "fight" with you they let loose and whack you harder than they intend. Broken noses, dislocated shoulders, hips, elbows, even knees are frequent, especially in grappling martial arts.

Street fights quickly deteriorate into knife/gun fights, therefore they should be avoided by the intelligent individual.

Moonduck
Jul 21, 2007, 09:44 AM
It's called sparring.

I don't know about you but my partner isn't composed of air. We both take some nasty hits from each other often. With/without sparring gloves etc.

You'll forgive me if I am non-plussed. You have nowhere near the adrenal response to sparring that you do in a real fight. Control goes out the window. You have nowhere near the uncontrolled environment of a street encounter. You have nowhere near the level of emotional involvement. You have nowhere near the utter unpredictability.

They are radically different situations. Yes, sparring is useful, but you'll have to forgive me for understanding the difference between a controlled strike thrown in a controlled sparring situation that is intended to NOT injure your sparring partner (that's bad form), and some guy trying to beat your heads in with his bare fists. I don't know about you, but I've been in both situations. There's a difference.

Trevors
Jul 28, 2007, 07:51 AM
I had to reply to this thread because anyone who thinks wing chun is some push over martial art is crazy the art itself was designed to disable ppl and in most cases kill them quickly before they could be shot or spotted.

I have a friend who was a long time street fighter who eventually got stabbed 15 times by some viets and took up wing chun for the past 8 years he was a scary person to mess with before but after the wing chun hes just insane. I witnessed him getting attacked outside a bar downtown and he dropped this massive guy almost instantly and no joke put him in a coma for 3 weeks which nearly landed him in prison accept for the fact that it was self defense and there were witnesses too it.

Just like any martial art it depends on the person alot to if its going to be very effective because if your not naturally a fighter you can only go so far with training. I spoke with him and asked what his toughest opponent would be and he said a seasoned boxer because there trained to be fast also making blocking and counterstriking more difficult.

Most of what is taught in wing chun is too seriously hurt somone within only a couple strikes or moves and is not legal in things like UFC or pride.

Jon_B
Oct 06, 2007, 02:44 AM
Wing Chun is good for self defense, but it's aligned to close quarters combat.

There's styles that do full contact sparring, and it's great. I've learned a few things here and there, but my brother is really good at it, and he started after reading the Tao of JKD (Of which he makes his own mix of things now).

I believe the only beef Bruce Lee had about the style was the range thing. I believe he said he had to chase people around when doing it, because of its nature at being so close, and that's why he incorporated boxing into JKD.

Hard chain punches aren't anything to mess with though. :D

The style itself isn't the factor: It's the training, and aggression.

Adriaan2000
Oct 06, 2007, 05:33 AM
At the dojo I train we never do "air punching" except in kata but thats a different matter. My sensei even encourages, and by this I mean he sort of taunts us, to work harder on each other, because he is of the oppinion that hitting air wont prepare you for real life and by getting hit you learn to take hits. Everything happens in a controlled fashion though. *you need that guy your hitting for further lessons:)*

isaiah.chentnik
Dec 10, 2007, 02:42 PM
I have trained some TKD, Karate & Wing Chun. I personally think that there are so many factors (some are random see quantum physics) involved in street fighting or any fighting that it is impossible to say what technique/form/art/skill/etc.. would actually help the most. It would really depend on what happens, circumstances, etc.. and of course Hindsight is always 20/20. If your an aggressive meat head and want to beet the crap out of someone you will most definitely have an advantage over others cause most people don't seek that out.

Wing Chun is largely based off of economy of movement. Meaning you don't instigate the fight you get out of it, you don't try to overpower someone you expose and take advantage, you don't but heads you use your brain. This is why it works well for self defense but may seem NOT adequate for sport fighting. My sifu was hesitant to even teach us how to close the gap per say (when you are trying to fight someone and want to get close to strike but don't want to become vulnerable). He knew how, but didn't want to teach us to fight others aggressively. In a real street fight, you would probably ignore this anyways so what does it really matter? That depends on the person. Honestly, if you need to close the gap you can probably run away (argument-ably the right thing to do).

I will say this, I spar with my friends and we kind of do a general rules type thing. Anything goes assuming you would be willing to have the same happen to you. Knowing that no one gets seriously hurt (most of the time). While fighting, economy of movement (a Wing Chun concept) can really help. For example, when you start to get tired and sloppy from going at it for like 10 minutes with someone else, Wing Chun can save your ass. Using proper technique will place you in an efficient manner of defending yourself. This is what Wing Chun teaches. What you do next is up to you.

isaiah.chentnik
Dec 10, 2007, 02:46 PM
No. No it's not. You try slapping a 6'3" 250lb dude and tell me how effective it is. Also, that "centerline" stuff is utter shite. They can believe all they want, but anyone that has an IQ higher than their shoe size KNOWS Wing Chun (and its variants) are total crap.

Personally, I'll take ippon seoinage and several kicks in the face FTW.
I have trained some TKD, Karate & Wing Chun. I personally think that there are so many factors (some are random see quantum physics) involved in street fighting or any fighting that it is impossible to say what technique/form/art/skill/etc.. would actually help the most. It would really depend on what happens, circumstances, etc.. and of course Hindsight is always 20/20. If your an aggressive meat head and want to beet the crap out of someone you will most definitely have an advantage over others cause most people don't seek that out.

Wing Chun is largely based off of economy of movement. Meaning you don't instigate the fight you get out of it, you don't try to overpower someone you expose and take advantage, you don't but heads you use your brain. This is why it works well for self defense but may seem NOT adequate for sport fighting. My sifu was hesitant to even teach us how to close the gap per say (when you are trying to fight someone and want to get close to strike but don't want to become vulnerable). He knew how, but didn't want to teach us to fight others aggressively. In a real street fight, you would probably ignore this anyways so what does it really matter? That depends on the person. Honestly, if you need to close the gap you can probably run away (argument-ably the right thing to do).

I will say this, I spar with my friends and we kind of do a general rules type thing. Anything goes assuming you would be willing to have the same happen to you. Knowing that no one gets seriously hurt (most of the time). While fighting, economy of movement (a Wing Chun concept) can really help. For example, when you start to get tired and sloppy from going at it for like 10 minutes with someone else, Wing Chun can save your ass. Using proper technique will place you in an efficient manner of defending yourself. This is what Wing Chun teaches. What you do next is up to you.

leeb51
Jul 09, 2008, 10:43 PM
No. No it's not. You try slapping a 6'3" 250lb dude and tell me how effective it is. Also, that "centerline" stuff is utter shite. They can believe all they want, but anyone that has an IQ higher than their shoe size KNOWS Wing Chun (and its variants) are total crap.

Personally, I'll take ippon seoinage and several kicks in the face FTW.

i dont know what ippon seoinage is but kicking someone in the face is the same as headbutting them in the foot! why would you waste your time doing it when the quickest route is a straight line (wing chun). believe me, wing chun does have power! unbelievable power! if you doubt me, go to a class and ask a student to punch you through a punch pad.

wing chun is a self defence art, street fighting is a mash of whatever works. any wing chun sifu worth his salt should teach you to do whatever works. dont fight power with power, absorb it and use your opponents power against them.

the best thing to do in a street fight is to avoid it or run.

peace out

Journeyman
Jul 10, 2008, 01:41 PM
Wing chun is all right but of course you have to be very fast, with good reflexes as it relies on slapping blocks. Bruce Lee used wing chun in the street fights he got into as a teenager (that's why he came here, by the way, he was in trouble with the law back home) and was apparently successful. Also his first American student he challenged to a sparring match and won-the guy was a champion boxer and saw the worth of wing chun.

I'm not saying you have to be Bruce Lee to use wing chun by the way.

Fatman
Jul 14, 2008, 06:53 AM
Bruce Lee was excellent at a number of martial arts. I don't think he ever used WC exclusively, especially not in a street fight.

L-x
Jul 22, 2008, 12:35 PM
i dont know what ippon seoinage is but kicking someone in the face is the same as headbutting them in the foot! why would you waste your time doing it when the quickest route is a straight line (wing chun). believe me, wing chun does have power! unbelievable power! if you doubt me, go to a class and ask a student to punch you through a punch pad.

wing chun is a self defence art, street fighting is a mash of whatever works. any wing chun sifu worth his salt should teach you to do whatever works. dont fight power with power, absorb it and use your opponents power against them.

the best thing to do in a street fight is to avoid it or run.

peace out

It's a Judo throw, so they end up on the ground, so kicking them in the face is kinda more economical that leaning down and punching.

Your last sentance is of much more value.

But assuming you're in a situation where you can't avoid a fight, i'd like to invoke an anecdote that is almost certainly not true, but makes quite a nice point.

An Aikido master was attacked by three huge guys at a bar. What did he do? Picked up a beer glass and smashed into the face of the nearest guy.

What does this illustrate? That martial arts become useless not because of any lack of technique, but because people fighting don't follow rules. Boxing's great, unless the guy you've just hit pulls a knife on you.

Brazillian Jiu Jitsu is fantastic, until your opponent's friend stamps on your face, negating the armbar you were just using.

Judo is fun too (my personal choice of MA) untill somone grabs your balls and holds on for dear life while you're grappling.

Ultimately, the person who fights dirtiest will win, so it's best to not get into that situation in the first place.

leeb51
Jul 22, 2008, 06:32 PM
thanks for the explanation. i guess some ma's are geared more towards sport these days (you cant deny that judo hasnt lost a lot of its self defense qualities in favour of sporting movements).

i believe that wing chun would definately give you an advantage in a street fight.
wing chun is not a martial art, it is a fighting system based on five principles:

simplicity
directness
economy of movement
minimum use of brute strength
practicality.

these principles are what sets wing chun apart from martial arts and what identifies it as a realistic fighting system. in wing chun there is no attack then defence, it is simultaneous. there is no flowerey movements, every thing is geared towards inflicting the most amount of damage in the quickest , easiest fashion.

true, traditional wing chun is pretty unstoppable when a certain level of understanding of the principles has been achieved

L-x
Jul 23, 2008, 03:11 PM
thanks for the explanation. i guess some ma's are geared more towards sport these days (you cant deny that judo hasnt lost a lot of its self defense qualities in favour of sporting movements).

i believe that wing chun would definately give you an advantage in a street fight.
wing chun is not a martial art, it is a fighting system based on five principles:

simplicity
directness
economy of movement
minimum use of brute strength
practicality.

these principles are what sets wing chun apart from martial arts and what identifies it as a realistic fighting system. in wing chun there is no attack then defence, it is simultaneous. there is no flowerey movements, every thing is geared towards inflicting the most amount of damage in the quickest , easiest fashion.

true, traditional wing chun is pretty unstoppable when a certain level of understanding of the principles has been achieved

Competition is still ultimately geared towards throwing for Ippon (straight onto the back).

If you can throw people very good at avoiding throws with enough force that they land on their back, you can damn sure do it to the average thug who starts a fight with you, and they won't be getting up to chase you any time soon.

I actually think the emphasis in competition in getting quick throws, and either doing something very quickly on the ground or standing up again helps the self defense aspect. You don't want to be rolling around on the ground for any length of time.

It's made it worse for MMA fights, if you throw a well conditioned fighter onto a mat and expect to have won by ippon you're foolish, but onto concrete, and a non-pro fighter with non-pro conditioning? They'll be winded for long enough for you to get away. That's all you want from a self-defense MA.

leeb51
Jul 23, 2008, 09:57 PM
it sounds like you should find a new wing chun sifu. i learnt about closing the gap in my third lesson! wing chun is all about passing on knowledge, not holding it back because you think its too dangerous. the first way we are told to react tosomeone attacking you is to kick them and close the gap, and then end the fight. i cant believe you werent taught how to do this, its so simple. closing the gap comes under attack/ defence and is probably one of the main features of wing chun. it just goes to show that there are a lot of low standard instructors teaching a bastardisation of the system that doesnt highlight the true principles of it.

leeb51
Jul 23, 2008, 10:04 PM
have you never heard of closing the gap? it should be one of the first things you are taught, along with simultaneous attack/defence. if you are too far away, step in with a front kick to the knee/thigh area and as you come in explode with twenty or thirty chain punches. simple! from far away to close and no chasing, just one step!
real wing chun doesnt have sparring, it cant because you cant get past the front kick and once you move forward you dont stop until the fight is over. real wing chun teaches whats called forward focus, this gets you into the mind set of always moving forward, always attacking. the only thing that comes close to sparring is chi sau (sticky hands) but this is only a test in sensitivity.

leeb51
Jul 23, 2008, 10:08 PM
chi sau is excellent as long as you change partners frequently. this stops you becoming used to one style and helps you feel differences in people. remember, focus forward all the time.

leeb51
Jul 23, 2008, 10:13 PM
wing chun does not rely on slapping blocks, it relies on forward focus and the redirection of force, this can be with a slap, punch, kick anythng to redirect the force that is heading your way. forward focus is about always going forward, alwas thinking forward, this means if anything comes into contact with you you go forward.

wulfsun
Jul 25, 2008, 06:27 AM
There's guy on youtube called Master Wong from Britain. He does a combination of kung fu, wing chun , tai chi , and jkd concepts called body-weapons. Look at his wing chun vids for a while and YOU decide for yourself if it's RIGHT for YOU.

leeb51
Aug 01, 2008, 10:59 PM
Bruce Lee was excellent at a number of martial arts. I don't think he ever used WC exclusively, especially not in a street fight.

i'll just mop that statement up if i may because it bothers me and other true wing chun practitioners that bruce lee is so heavily associated with wing chun. according to my si gung , the late jim fung , who knew him , he was average at wing chun, no master and certainly not excellent! he had one leg about 1 inch shorter than the other so had to modify his stance, moving one foot on front of the other which is not the true wing chun stance. without this stance he could never master the intricicacys of the system. he took aspects of wing chun with him in his forming of the jeet kune do system. he did use wing chun when he was young in street fights, wing chun is basically chinese street fighting. bruce lee was probably best at kicking, he was lightning with a kick but had no real force and power in upper body movements in the way that true wing chun teaches you.

twoblink
Aug 11, 2008, 04:04 AM
One thing I find to be troubling is the fact that when someone is in guard position in BJJ, they don't throw Wing Chun punches! WC punches require no recoiling, and the straight trust of the chain punch is efficient as both an attack as well as a defense.

Wing Chun has a lot of good for someone small in frame size, and is primarily for defense. I find the front thrust kick to the knee to be ridiculously effective at breaking a knee, and I find the chain punch to be great in an emergancy.

Every MA has good and bad, not all good, and not all bad..

emperor zombie
Aug 26, 2008, 01:34 AM
like any fighting art, wing chun has some useful stuff. but the problem with aloto fmartial arts is that they are meant to be used against other practitioners of that same style. the wing chun centerline stuff is iffy. you are staying in front of someone letting him use both arms and legs 'and head' against you. better still is boxing. create an angle to where you have 2 arms versus only one of his. what about head movement, quarter turns, slips, ducks , weaves, blocks/parries/dodges. the reason wing chun people cant get a hook to work is because they dont get off center line. throw a hook off of a roll or an angle and it is a fantastic free shot to his ribs/liver/solar plexus or chin. plus the closing the gap stuff is better in boxing anyway. some of the shots wing chun has, boxing doesnt like the backfists and slap shots which probly could be added to boxing to good effect. regardless, it still comes down to the person using the art. there are even some tae kwon do people who can throw down. but using a law of averages approach, boxers, muaythai, and wrestlers will winout versus themore esoteric martial arts.