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bobster_ice
Jul 22, 2006, 07:22 AM
OK, well, this is my first post on the forums so...To start of, ill say hi!

Ok, a little about me, Im called Bobby and im 15 yrs old. I do 3 martial arts, Karate, TKD and Ninjutsu. I have never touched a weight in my life and never will, in my opinion, lifting weights, apart from your own bodyweight, is cheating, does anyone agree with me?

ok...now the question, can somebody tell me What the "Ultimate body conditioning" workout is?

Im asking this because ive been on a few websites that sell this book called The ultimate body conditioning workout.

I know it is probally stuff I already know, but I thought I would ask you guys your opinion,

Bobby.

koltz
Jul 22, 2006, 07:34 AM
No it's not cheating is beind stupid actually , weights can contribute a lot. you have to use what you got. in the 30's weights were considered cheating... now every top athlete uses them bruce lee used them so why not?

there is no such a thing as ultimate body conditioning workout ,
you can work your flexibility with martial arts moves and streching
You can work your speed with balistic excersises
Yuo can work your endurance by doing many repetitions in a giventime and running
you can build your strength and power by doing heavier stuff like weights one arm pushups etc.

you can try one workout have great results with it and after two monthes hit the plateu then somethign else would be ultimate...

bobster_ice
Jul 22, 2006, 07:42 AM
Thanks.

bobster_ice
Jul 22, 2006, 07:48 AM
Btw, I only classify weights as cheating because I havnt done them yet, im going to start them when im like 18 or 19.

But if I do medicine ball training, that is still classified as doing weights, isnt it?

koltz
Jul 22, 2006, 09:05 AM
Medicine balls are ... how to say it... pretty much worthless unless you have to keep little kids and use it as a ball for them to play with =\
tell me one good use of a medicine ball?

as for weights I';m not going to criticise you do whatever you want they do help with body weight stuff too


edit - did you mean swiss ball or a weight that's a medicine ball?

Jul 22, 2006, 10:45 AM
It's great to use anything that you can get your hands on.
Bodyweight exercises are usually used when you can't get your hands other equipment or it's not enough for everyone.
For example in the army lets say a particular compay has 150 troops.
For all of them to do weight exercises you need 150 barbells or 300 dumbells. Even if 10 people use the same barbell, you still need 15 of them. So BW is more practical.
The problem is that many people don't know variations of BW exercises.
Props to Bodyweightculture.com =D> lol
Also some poeple choose to use BW exercises for general fitness. There is nothing wrong with that, cause again if you know what you are doing, you can get in ubelievable shape and get very strong too.

speedy
Jul 24, 2006, 01:04 PM
Ok, a little about me, Im called Bobby and im 15 yrs old. I do 3 martial arts, Karate, TKD and Ninjutsu.
First I have to ask this: how do you have that much time? Seriously, one style alone: MMA, TKD, Karate, Ninjutsu, etc... requires at least 3x's a week if not more to get anywhere. I don't see how you can do 3 styles at a time. Do you go to school?


I have never touched a weight in my life and never will, in my opinion, lifting weights, apart from your own bodyweight, is cheating, does anyone agree with me?
I don't agree. How can you call that cheating? In fact the statement makes zero sense. Weights are a tool to achieve your goal. Our goals are achieved by using bodyweight, but a person that uses weight is not cheating, in fact it can affect them negatively. For instance, if you lift like a bodybuilder, but want to remain the speed and flexibility you have in martial arts, I seriously doubt you will be able to. You need to train with weights correctly, meaning you don't do bodybuilding workouts if you want to retain your speed and flexibility.



ok...now the question, can somebody tell me What the "Ultimate body conditioning" workout is?
The "Ultimate Body Conditioning" IMHO doesn't really exist. People are not going to be the same, and therefore what works great for one person will not work great for others. What you need to do is first answer the following question: what do you want to achieve? Then do a workout that focuses on achieving that. If you just experiment you will waste a lot of time like I did. I never asked myself what I wanted, I just did workouts while going to karate. While my workouts clearly were developing muscles, there was no reason behind it, and other areas of my body clearly were lacking. When I finally realized this, I left weights and went to bodyweight training, created my own forum, and now getting the results I want.


Im asking this because ive been on a few websites that sell this book called The ultimate body conditioning workout.
Don't believe everything you read. You can ask us, but when it comes to stuff like this, you will get a lot of opinions.

speedy
Jul 24, 2006, 01:12 PM
Medicine balls are ... how to say it... pretty much worthless unless you have to keep little kids and use it as a ball for them to play with =\
tell me one good use of a medicine ball?

as for weights I';m not going to criticise you do whatever you want they do help with body weight stuff too


edit - did you mean swiss ball or a weight that's a medicine ball?

Useless? Dude, have you been to kickboxing? One of the best tools used to condition: gut and chest. One of my favorite past times (there are many exercises we did but I am focusing on one right now) is making a ring with the other guys and throwing the ball at ones chest to condition it for punches. Great addition to our pushup workouts.

koltz
Jul 24, 2006, 01:48 PM
Sorry , I confused a medicine ball with a swiss ball(that useless thing you lie\sit on and lift weights whiel at it) a medicne ball ( a heavy ball that can be thron and stuff) is VERY VERY VERY usefull , especialy in striking sports or sports like american football.

Baofuhaibo
Jul 25, 2006, 12:25 AM
Check out Bas Rutten's stuff on youtube, and the "Thug Workout" series for fighting specific stuff all on youtube.com. And the swiss ball isn't useless, combined with dumbells, cables, or even barbells, it adds stabilization to every movement, BW isn't that usefull with it though, but you can do swiss ball pushups on it.

koltz
Jul 25, 2006, 01:59 AM
It's still useless.

Puhsups can be done feet agienst the wall\tables\chairs for various inclines no need to spend money on a big ball.

And all this "unstable enviroment" workouts aren't good for anything :
1.You will never learn how to jab by liftign weights you lift weights get a strogn core and combine it by jabbing either a bag or at sparing(most people like me who don't participate in any fighting sports don't need this one and it's not my thoughts here it's quoted)

2.you can't use big weights on a swiss ball , ever benched some 120lb dumbells on it? I don't think it's that safe (Martial artists and fighters can use big weights and they CAN lift them slowly especially for mma where the isometric strength you get along with the power and speed helps with grappling some of the top guys in mma have some crazy powerlifting records)

3.it's sort of pansy ass thing , it doesn't add anythign new and it's worse then a bench the kind of thing feemale gym bunnies use along with pink dumbells.

so just use a bench

Antaeus
Jul 25, 2006, 08:21 PM
The ultimate conditioning would probably be full-body high-rep explosive lifts. Such includes cleans, snatches, push presses, power squats, dynamic lunges, etc.

I don't agree with your comment that weight training is cheating. If weight training is cheating then bodyweight training is cheating. Resistance is resistance whether it is with iron or your body.

Every martial artist should lift weights because nothing is better for developing raw strength then with weights. A martial artist must have more "weight awareness" then "body awareness". Being able to hold a planche is not nearly as beneficial as being able to deadlift for a martial artist. Lifting weights will develop more "primary" lifting muscles while bodyweight will develop a lot of stability muscles. Lifting weights will obviously still develop stability muscles, (unless you use those worthless machines) just not as much as bodyweight.

It comes down to what kind of strength you want (gymnast or lifter). You will never see a gymnast deadlifting 900 pounds just like you would never see a powerlifter/olympic lifter holding a one arm lever.

And for those who want to lift weights but don't want to get bulky must lift really heavy with low sets and reps. I'll explain. There are two types of hypertrophy (muscle growth): sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar.

Myofibrillar hypertrophy is when the muscle fiber grows as it recruits more myofibrils which is responsible for strength. You get this by lifting very heavy weights. 1-4 reps of 2 sets.

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is when the muscle enlarges through the accumulation of the fluid sarcoplasm, which is your high rep pump.

Bodybuilders have mainly saroplasmic hypertrophy and powerlifters or olympic lifters have mainly myofibrillar hypertrophy. That is why you see these guys hoisting record numbers, double the weight of what of bodybuilders lift yet they aren't as big. Some don't even come close to the size of bodybuilders, even if you were to compensate for the ones who have a small build.

So you may be wondering "why don't I have a large muscles even though I do hundreds of push ups and sit ups and dozens of pull ups?" That's because you are working your slow twitch (endurance) fibers which don't grow large while your high twitch (strength) fibers can grow a lot larger.

You can still be muscle bound and be very athletic and acrobatic. Look at Havoc (Ilan Rosenberg) from Team Ryouko. He is a bodybuilder and a tricker. He was doing flips at his bodybuilding competition.

Medicine ball training is very useful since the ball is unstable. Do push ups or crunches on a stability ball and you will see it is harder to stabilize yourself.

Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to explain that you can lift and not get big.

Jul 26, 2006, 07:21 AM
Antaeus,
don't you think that you can get fast twich fibers by doing plyometrics?
For example explosive pull ups, push ups, squat jumps. If that's not enough for you how about all that with one arm?
I believe that people who know know BW, they can develop all of strength and fast twich fibers with BW exercises.
I would not argue that if you are training to do a Olympic clean and jerk, you need to work with a barbell, but how many people here are training for that?
Lately everyone is into Olympic lifts, which in my oppinion is just fanatism, because some big name wrote it in the book and everyone ran to do it.
I am sure there is some value to it, but since this is a combat arts sub forum - like many have said before it's possible to be a great fighter or soldier never having touched weights.

Antaeus
Jul 26, 2006, 06:38 PM
Plyometrics were designed to develop your fast twitch fibers.

And Olympic style lifts are not just fanaticism. All of those movements are explosive and work every part of your body. Sure, you can perform explosive lifts with just using your bodyweight. But once your bodyweight becomes too little resistance it's time to add weight. This was you are developing "strength-endurance". If you can do rounds of circuit training involving power squats, dynamic lunges, etc. with just your bodyweight and you can do it fine, it's time to add some weight.

And yes, you can become a strong fighter through bodyweight exercises only. But like I said before, there are different kinds of strength. The main ones being "gymnast" and "lifter". Let me give you an example. You have a gymnast, who can manipulate his own bodyweight in many ways, go head-to-head with a powerlifter, who can manipulate external resistance like no other. Now assuming both of these athletes were the same size, who do you think is gonna win? The guy with the raw strength who lifts weight around like it was nothing? Or the guy who is just used to moving himself around?

And weighted exercises can help you with bodyweight exercises. An example can be your vertical jump. Performing weighted squats will develop your strength will plyometrics will develop your explosiveness and height. You have two twins who weigh the same and do plyometrics. But one can perform heavy squats and one can't. Who do you think will be able to jump higher?

I know this is a Bodyweight forum. But since we are talking about Combat Arts you can't just stick to one method of strength and conditioning, just like you can't stick to one style of fighting. You need to be well rounded. Powerlifting for weight strength and stability. Olympic Lifting and Plyometrics for explosiveness. Gymnastics and Bodyweight for bodyweight weight strength, balance, and stability. And combine many of the above for overall endurance.

I am personally a real fan of bodyweight conditioning. Gymnasts, trickers, and free runners are the most impressive athletes, imo. But there are weight training exercises that will benefit bodyweight exercises.

Antaeus
Jul 27, 2006, 06:43 PM
Another things I should point out is you have to look at the "recruit patterns" of you muscles during certain exercises. Lets take the bench press and push up for example. When performing a bench press you have push the resistance away from your body. When doing a push up your body moves away from the resistance. Same could go with a military press and handstand push up.

Another example by of different recruitment patterns is the pull up and the lat pulldown on a machine. While doing a lat pulldown the resistance is moving towards the body. When doing a pull up the body is moving towards the resistance.

You need to have the lifter strength. Like the example I used before, a powerlifter locks horns with a gymnast. Who do you think is gonna be doing all the manhandling?

koltz
Jul 28, 2006, 04:50 AM
You forgot that during a BP your shoulders are stablized on a bench while in the pushup you have to hold them in place using the stablizer muscules of the scapula.
another differance is the resistance, the resistance durign a BP is uniform , however during a pushup you hold over 70% of your body on the ground but when you are up it's about 55% that's why if someone performed a lot of pushupsand rollups hell be a good raw bencher (in powerlifting the bottom phase of the bench is hardest that's why they use shirts to help them during thatl ift and emphesize lockout).

Jul 28, 2006, 11:39 AM
Another things I should point out is you have to look at the "recruit patterns" of you muscles during certain exercises. Lets take the bench press and push up for example. When performing a bench press you have push the resistance away from your body. When doing a push up your body moves away from the resistance. Same could go with a military press and handstand push up.

Another example by of different recruitment patterns is the pull up and the lat pulldown on a machine. While doing a lat pulldown the resistance is moving towards the body. When doing a pull up the body is moving towards the resistance.

You need to have the lifter strength. Like the example I used before, a powerlifter locks horns with a gymnast. Who do you think is gonna be doing all the manhandling?

A gymnast must be stupid to lock horns. He must do what he is capable of doing to win, that is move around, wear the other guy out. Than he can do whatever he wants. Now if a power lifter and a gymnasts of the same size have a fight, you really never know who would win.
A gymnast has muscles which are strong in a lot of ranges, and powerlifter in only few.

speedy
Jul 28, 2006, 11:41 AM
Good point. My buddy who is a great kicker is smart enough to know when he spars with the big guy it's get in a few kicks, get out, move around, and repeat. Then switch it up from time to time to keep them guessing.

Antaeus
Jul 28, 2006, 05:40 PM
You forgot that during a BP your shoulders are stablized on a bench while in the pushup you have to hold them in place using the stablizer muscules of the scapula.
another differance is the resistance, the resistance durign a BP is uniform , however during a pushup you hold over 70% of your body on the ground but when you are up it's about 55% that's why if someone performed a lot of pushupsand rollups hell be a good raw bencher (in powerlifting the bottom phase of the bench is hardest that's why they use shirts to help them during thatl ift and emphesize lockout).

I was mainly talking about the way the muscles are recruited, not what muscles are recruited. A push up will obviously work more muscles then a bench press just like a pull up will work more muscles then a lat pulldown.

Jul 30, 2006, 10:26 AM
You forgot that during a BP your shoulders are stablized on a bench while in the pushup you have to hold them in place using the stablizer muscules of the scapula.
another differance is the resistance, the resistance durign a BP is uniform , however during a pushup you hold over 70% of your body on the ground but when you are up it's about 55% that's why if someone performed a lot of pushupsand rollups hell be a good raw bencher (in powerlifting the bottom phase of the bench is hardest that's why they use shirts to help them during thatl ift and emphesize lockout).

I was mainly talking about the way the muscles are recruited, not what muscles are recruited. A push up will obviously work more muscles then a bench press just like a pull up will work more muscles then a lat pulldown.


Lat pull down is slightly different than pull up in terms of upper range.

At some point you can't add more weight to the lat pull down and not hurt youself while stabilizing the lowerbody downward.
But with pull ups, you can do plenty of crazy resistance. Bands, weight west, another person, one arm, etc.

liero
Oct 16, 2006, 10:06 PM
another important thing people seem to be missing in the "combat workout" is the vital importance of dynamic stretching.

for example practising repeated fast leg raises gets your body used to that muscle group movement, its usefull when combined with your strength workout. The dynamic stretching creates fast twitch fibres which are conditioned to perform exactly the movements that you want in say...a front kick. better than static stretching where you are not training you body to the range of motion that you want.

the stretching also helps your body relax, which aids in speed and agility which is important for evading strikes.

most guys I know who train in anything other than "traditional" martial arts; footballers, weight lifters and even boxers- overlook the importance of flexibility. I dont know if this is because its "girly" to be able to sit down legs out and touch your toes and have your head near your knees.

-TM-
Oct 21, 2006, 12:32 PM
wegihts aren't exactly cheating....

the reason i do BW instead of weightlifting is because i don't want to be huge.

i like having nice defined-not overly huge muscles.

to me i'd rather be able to do 100 push ups/1 arm push ups/handtsand push ups-then bench 200 or w/e

Antaeus
Oct 21, 2006, 03:09 PM
the reason i do BW instead of weightlifting is because i don't want to be huge.

You don't wake up and become as big as Arnold. And your body can't tell where the resistance is coming from anyway. Your body won't sense you doing a push-up and turn on the "tone" mechanism while if you do a bench press it will turn on the "bulk" mechanism.

You can't tone a muslce anyway. Tone has to do with your BF%. Your muscles only do two things: they grow/get stronger or they shrink/get weaker.

Chico
Oct 21, 2006, 03:40 PM
You forgot that during a BP your shoulders are stablized on a bench while in the pushup you have to hold them in place using the stablizer muscules of the scapula.
another differance is the resistance, the resistance durign a BP is uniform , however during a pushup you hold over 70% of your body on the ground but when you are up it's about 55% that's why if someone performed a lot of pushupsand rollups hell be a good raw bencher (in powerlifting the bottom phase of the bench is hardest that's why they use shirts to help them during thatl ift and emphesize lockout).

not with the bench press with the bar and weights only, your shoulders have to stabilize it

avalonmaker
Nov 05, 2006, 01:34 PM
I don't believe weight lifting is bad. I do believe it stunts your growth if you do it at a early age(tightens up the spine). The 3 weight lifting exercises I find utterly dangerous are Good Mornings, Squats and Bench Pressing. I'm not saying they'll hurt you, but in the long run they will.
Check out Pavell's, Furey's and Peterson's novels and then come up with different routines. Mix it up a bit.
Exercises currently in my routine are Matt Furey's Royal Court, Close and Wide Grip Pushups, Table Makers,Boot-Strapper and V Ups(Jacknife version)..I do add and remove some exercises each week

koltz
Nov 06, 2006, 07:50 AM
I don't believe weight lifting is bad. I do believe it stunts your growth if you do it at a early age(tightens up the spine). The 3 weight lifting exercises I find utterly dangerous are Good Mornings, Squats and Bench Pressing. I'm not saying they'll hurt you, but in the long run they will.
Check out Pavell's, Furey's and Peterson's novels and then come up with different routines. Mix it up a bit.
Exercises currently in my routine are Matt Furey's Royal Court, Close and Wide Grip Pushups, Table Makers,Boot-Strapper and V Ups(Jacknife version)..I do add and remove some exercises each week
furey is a scammer he sells bulshit books describing bulshit routines and excersises over promising and not delivering at all.
pavel is pretty much okey but hes also a sales person but at least he sells valid books with advice that works from what I heard , he also has a great site
but I think if you should buy any BW material it hsoudl be rosses , (rosstraining.com) he has the best stuff of them all and hes less of a salesman ehs also inhumanly strogn and in awesome shape unlike the other two I mentioned...

also , the weight lifting stunts your growth , is pure bull the olympic weightlifters includign the 6 foot giants in the superheeavy weight class lift fomr age 6~. that includes gymnasts swimmers and many more. a shitty diet stunts growth , not weights. if you want any creditibility for your advice here I reccomend you to drop that.

jonp382
Nov 06, 2006, 11:20 AM
I have Furey's Combat Conditioning book...all the exercises I've seen in my elementary school gym class(except for the royal court), and for the most part are extremely ineffective...and also dangerous, such as the duck waddle...he wasn't kidding when schools and stuff had 'adopted' his program... :lol:

Ross Enaimat's books are very good, and Pavel's aren't too bad, but they're full of fluff beyond belief, usually advertising some super secret evil super effective exercise or tool... :roll: Russian Kettleballs, anyone? :P

koltz
Nov 06, 2006, 12:12 PM
kettlebells are an awesome workout tool , I use them for weight in dips in my gym , normal plates ain't built for that stuff....

damm evil secreet method to add weight to dips and pullups without messing around hitting your legs with an iron plate

jonp382
Nov 06, 2006, 12:54 PM
If only they were cheaper... :lol:

Drunken Panda
Nov 06, 2006, 02:32 PM
[exercises are]for the most part are extremely ineffective...and also dangerous, such as the duck waddle...

This caught my eye.

Can you explain to me why the duck waddle is a dangerous exercise? I have read somewhere that sumo wrestlers use it to develop strength in their legs. Not that this means that it isn't dangerous of course (!), but I'm interested into why you think it (and if other walks like it, such as the Ape Walk - a duck waddle where the arms are extended above the head) should be avoided all the same.

avalonmaker
Nov 06, 2006, 03:14 PM
If those guys are 6 feet tall is because of their genes. lifting does tighten up the spine though. spend a week of straight lifting and never stretch, you'd be much less flexible
Furey has his business and he targets people almost mid aged. I love all of the exercises in combat conditioning. I wasn't familiar with that Ross guy until yesterday, it looks like he has a great program for a good price. A guy who's stuff I really like is Scrapper from trainforstrength.com, he seems like a very honest guy and he pretty much gives you a lot of exercises and routines for a decent price(99 bucks, decent compared to Furey..lol)..trainforstrength.com also offers free workouts, exercises and other goodies
This will probably be the last time I defend Furey because EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, I really like this forum..it's friendly..but if it weren't for Furey, I personally would have never got into Calisthenics. If you pick up Mens health,they claim calisthenics is only for endurance and you can never get strong from it..boy were they wrong

crazydan
Nov 30, 2006, 05:13 PM
OK well to start off. I do not understand how you think weights are cheating. For one I gauruntee atleast one perosn you fight uses weights and he will then have an advantage. Number 2 in a fight there is no such thing as cheating so do what ever you can possibly do such as lift weights. 3rd I am 6 foot 1 15 yrs old and i have been liftiing for 2 yrs. and still growing it obviously didnt stunt my growth. Also how do you do 3 martial arts?

jonp382
Nov 30, 2006, 11:02 PM
Being 6 feet is not because of genes completely, its also because of overall more nutrition. It's hard to work some muscles effectively without weights so I add weights to my routine.

And I disagree 100% with the inflexible. I've been lifting weights for a while and if anything I'm more flexible.

cheesedog
Dec 01, 2006, 03:07 AM
If you do weightlifting exercises that work your muscles through a full range of motion, you should not lose flexibility. The problem is alot of people shorten the ROM so they can lift more weight.

If you do deep, full squats, overhead squats, pullovers, dips, etc., you might even gain dynamic flexibility.

koltz
Dec 01, 2006, 06:20 AM
If you do weightlifting exercises that work your muscles through a full range of motion, you should not lose flexibility. The problem is alot of people shorten the ROM so they can lift more weight.

If you do deep, full squats, overhead squats, pullovers, dips, etc., you might even gain dynamic flexibility.
even if you do the stuff with partial rom but use the flexibility at least to soem degree you won't loose it ,

thoose wierd mythes about weightes belong to the 30s and to the pussies in the health clubs doing pilates , don't belive in them.

kevo
Dec 23, 2006, 12:52 PM
what are "rollups" ??

DanDan
May 02, 2007, 06:40 AM
I'll explain. There are two types of hypertrophy (muscle growth): sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar.

Myofibrillar hypertrophy is when the muscle fiber grows as it recruits more myofibrils which is responsible for strength. You get this by lifting very heavy weights. 1-4 reps of 2 sets.

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is when the muscle enlarges through the accumulation of the fluid sarcoplasm, which is your high rep pump.

Bodybuilders have mainly saroplasmic hypertrophy and powerlifters or olympic lifters have mainly myofibrillar hypertrophy. That is why you see these guys hoisting record numbers, double the weight of what of bodybuilders lift yet they aren't as big. Some don't even come close to the size of bodybuilders, even if you were to compensate for the ones who have a small build.



Can you provide any proof for the above , except for the Original Nikituk and Samoilov study from 1990 , and the very brief mention Zatsiorsky
does in his book that certain training protocols will influence the % of either myofibrilar or sarcoplasmic fraction in hypertrophy ?

Please present some peer reviewed research to the forum members, for our benefit. My review of the literature does not support this theory. It appears its a myth, based on extremely poor research and not backed up .

Please not that differences in strength between bodybuilders and powerlifters can be easily explained in many ways, not only as you try to explain it .

Moonduck
May 02, 2007, 04:27 PM
I was mainly talking about the way the muscles are recruited, not what muscles are recruited. A push up will obviously work more muscles then a bench press just like a pull up will work more muscles then a lat pulldown.

A push-up does not work more muscles than a properly executed bench. Nor does it even come close to activating the same number of fibres in the same muscles. It is basically impossible for a regular push-up to activate the same number of fibres as the load just isn't there in comparison to a proper bench press (assuming solid intensity, an empty bar will activate less).

If you are confused as to why I say this, look at the set-up a powerlifter goes through to get into position of his bench. The muscles actively involved in the movement are way more activated due to greater loading, while the support muscles are hit the same way. The rest of the body gets more activation as well due to leg drive, tightly held arch, and general isometric tension used to "Stay tight!". I can perform push-ups and stay far more loose. If I were loose like that on a bench, I would get stapled.

I agree with you on the pull-up versus lat-pull-down though.

--


The 3 weight lifting exercises I find utterly dangerous are Good Mornings, Squats and Bench Pressing. I'm not saying they'll hurt you, but in the long run they will.

Name me an exercise that won't hurt you. Cycling, for example, nice and safe, no eccentric to it, no impact, not even load bearing, right? How's Floyd Landis' hip? I won't even get into running. I know plenty of people that have wrecked wrists, elbows, and shoulders doing push-ups. I've dicked my back up doing sit-ups. Bodyweight squats can wreck knees.

No movement is totally safe, period. The problem with squats and good mornings is almost always technique related. 95%+ of the people out there lifting don't know how to squat right (most of those just don't squat in the first place because of pablum like the above quote). Good Mornings are something only intermediate and advanced trainees should do due to strength and supporting muscles concerns, and are also rarely done correctly.

The bench is bad only because people are bloody stupid about it. First it is also an exercise where bad technique is far more prevalent. Second, too many people are obsessed with it, and overdo it badly. Third, too many people refuse to do the additional work necessary to balance their upper body strength (vertical and horizontal pulling, vertical pressing, rotational work, etc) and get injuries due to muscle imbalances.

I don't find exercises dangerous, I find that stupid people exercising is dangerous. Yes, there are dangerous exercises out there (anything with a load done one-legged on a Bosu for example), but everything you've mentioned is FAR from "utterly dangerous" when done correctly.

Getting back to the first part though, tell me an exercise that is worth doing that you can't get hurt performing.

brutality is law
May 09, 2007, 06:31 PM
Anyone who says bodyweight alone cant build strength is a fool. You'll build strength from tension and keeping your whole body tight using mind to muscles. Not mindless reps. How do O-lifting even get involved when this is a bodyweight forum. But the only way to get better at something is to do what you do alot. If you want a stronger punch a bench press isnt gonna make you a powerhouse, You need to hit the bag alot and pushups help to. But punching power is about muscles resistance not how much weight you can move. Different movements invlove different muscles and different techniques.


To me the ultimate conditioning routine is one thats always changing. Your body gets use to things easily so mixing it up all the time to me is the best thing you can do. But dont go to crazy with changing it up.

Journeyman
Jul 12, 2008, 08:14 AM
Tai Chi forms w/ medicine ball are great

wulfsun
Jul 26, 2008, 12:52 AM
1. What style of karate are you taking?
2. Ninjutsu or taijutsu ?
3. What style of taekwondo are you taking as well?




Plus there is no such thing as a "ultimate body conditioning workout".

Sepanto
Jul 28, 2008, 04:15 PM
The best conditioning routine is the one you didn't do before/in a long time.

In conditioning, unlike strength-work, surprising your body is a good thing, since doing the same conditioning routine causes neurological efficiency, instead of adaption of the respiratory, cardiovascular and muscular systems.

For example you become efficient with doing sprints, but at a certain point the carry-over to different goals is minimal.

Best example is this Lance Armstrong, who despite having an amazing respiratory and cardiovascular system from cycling, finished 868th place in the NYC marathon. Conditioning does not always correlate well to sport-performance, and here Armstrong's conditioning in cycling did not transfer to marathon running.

Raja
Jul 29, 2008, 03:02 AM
Best example is this Lance Armstrong, who despite having an amazing respiratory and cardiovascular system from cycling, finished 868th place in the NYC marathon.

Holy crap. That's definitely some food for thought.

moak
Jul 29, 2008, 10:53 AM
Of course weights are good. Cheating?? Weird.
Even if it were cheating, there are a lot of people whose job it is to take on very unfair odds to keep us safe (LEO, military, firefighters, etc). I hope they cheat like a mother****er.

trickdacy
Jul 29, 2008, 12:24 PM
I think the Lance Armstrong example is not a good one. Clearly, Armstrong was very well conditioned for his sport. I'm sure his heart was in great shape, etc. But Lance Armstrong just didn't train very much for the marathon. According to a NYTimes article after the race:

"Armstrong said he was able to run only about 45 minutes a day, squeezing workouts among appearances for his cancer foundation and jaunts to Los Angeles, hanging out with celebrities. His longest training run was 16 miles; it is common for marathoners to do at least one 20-miler."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/06/sports/sportsspecial/06armstrong.html?ref=sportsspecial

He also mentioned having severe shinsplints during the race. All in all, he did extremely well under the circumstances. Lance Armstrong finished the race in under 3 hours, at a pace of 6:51 a mile. I don't think that most people who we consider to be very well-conditioned could do better than that.

Dave.cyco
Jul 29, 2008, 02:08 PM
Clearly, Armstrong was very well conditioned for his sport. I'm sure his heart was in great shape, etc. But Lance Armstrong just didn't train very much for the marathon

That's what makes it a good example. He had never spent considerable time training his body to take the pounding that LSD running gives your body. Now if he had been a seasoned marathoner, his bones and joints would have been able to take the abuse better, and probably would have transferred over to his performance.

Take him at the peak of his training for a Tour de France and he still would not perform exceptionally in a marathon, just like a strict marathoner would never have the quad strength to compete with Lance on a bike.

Patrick1968
Jul 29, 2008, 03:01 PM
Lance Armstrong ran a 3 hour marathon on his first ever attempt with very little running training/experience. Most you guys have no idea what a 3 hour marathon means. Go and try to run 5 miles at the pace he held for 26. It's a very decent standard achieved by very few lifelong runners and he did it first time out.

Any fool can criticize - and normally does.

Obie013
Jul 29, 2008, 04:29 PM
I disagree with you on the uselessness of a stability ball, Koltz. I have a stability that has proven to be a tremendous help with grappling. Whether is wrestling of jiu-jitsu or whatever, 20 minutes of rolling around on the stability ball as a warm greatly increases fluidness of motion and balance. To me, it is a nesscessity to flexibility, speed and overall ground awareness like a sandbag is to lifting strength, core conditioning and stabilizer muscles.

I will agree with that other than grappling, the ball is basically useless :)

cathal
Jul 29, 2008, 05:15 PM
Lance Armstrong ran a 3 hour marathon on his first ever attempt with very little running training/experience. Most you guys have no idea what a 3 hour marathon means. Go and try to run 5 miles at the pace he held for 26. It's a very decent standard achieved by very few lifelong runners and he did it first time out.

Any fool can criticize - and normally does.

indeed lance's pace per mile in the marathon was sublime for a non runner. 6.51mins per mile is tough enough for 1 mile, never mind 26

Sepanto
Jul 29, 2008, 08:08 PM
Lance Armstrong ran a 3 hour marathon on his first ever attempt with very little running training/experience. Most you guys have no idea what a 3 hour marathon means. Go and try to run 5 miles at the pace he held for 26. It's a very decent standard achieved by very few lifelong runners and he did it first time out.

Any fool can criticize - and normally does.

You didn't get the point behind it. I completely agree that he did very well for a 1st marathon. However my point is that at a certain point, training and conditioning yourself in a single, specific, way would backfire and you would develop specific conditioning (i.e. for bike race) and not general conditioning.

trickdacy
Jul 29, 2008, 09:51 PM
I don't know...I mean, Lance is obviously more efficient at the bike, but his heart and lungs are still in great condition. The elite runners who he ran with said that he didn't have trouble with the race cardiovascularly. It was just that his joints and tendons weren't able to handle the strain, and I'm willing to bet that his form wasn't perfect either. Dave is right that Lance certainly wouldn't be able to "condition" his joints and tendons without actually running, but Lance is certainly conditioned well in a certain sense of the word.

Fatman
Jul 30, 2008, 02:28 AM
Well, you get better at what you train for. Sure, sometimes there is some carryover. Armstrong finished 868th, but there were probably over two thousand people there who are trained marathon runners (maybe not Olympic material, but certainly people who train for it), and he outperformed a number of them.

It's like getting one of the skinny Ethiopian dudes who can run for 3 days non-stop, giving them a bike and having them try cycling the Tour de France or something. Or a world record holder in the squat and deadlift trying to match the snatch and clean+jerk of a middleweight weightlifter. He'll outlift a guy like myself, for sure, purely on massive strength, but in a lifting comp he would come last. Apples and oranges.

wulfsun
Aug 02, 2008, 03:35 AM
Hey bobby you get my questions? I asked you this because some of the styles you're taking might be hazardous to your development.

Dave.cyco
Aug 02, 2008, 11:12 AM
Wulfsun, bobster ice has not posted on BWC in 2 years, so I wouldn't expect and answer.

wulfsun
Aug 02, 2008, 03:56 PM
Thanks for pointing that out. My since of time is really off. I think I'll just keep away from this section of the forum for a while.

dthncrnge
Aug 12, 2008, 02:36 PM
OK, well, this is my first post on the forums so...To start of, ill say hi!

Ok, a little about me, Im called Bobby and im 15 yrs old. I do 3 martial arts, Karate, TKD and Ninjutsu. I have never touched a weight in my life and never will, in my opinion, lifting weights, apart from your own bodyweight, is cheating, does anyone agree with me?

ok...now the question, can somebody tell me What the "Ultimate body conditioning" workout is?

Im asking this because ive been on a few websites that sell this book called The ultimate body conditioning workout.

I know it is probally stuff I already know, but I thought I would ask you guys your opinion,

Bobby.
Its called crossfit, ever heard of it?

Me personallly, Im about the weights, shadowboxing/breakdancing, and running to be in shape.

But, then again, if you want to be "conditioned" as you call it, then you want to start up crossfit.

bridgeman
Dec 01, 2008, 09:10 PM
Weights are just as good as bodyweight training or any other training.I have ca been a powerlifter most of my life and i have used weights,bodyweight exercises,flexability exercises,you name it, if it helps me achieve my goal,I will do whatever it takes.A chain is only as strong as its weakest link:)

gangstawolf
Jan 24, 2009, 04:25 PM
yo yo perfect body i have seen it before its hard to get it my friend he lifts wight hes like really strong he does the human flag and another hard movments i dont no what they call it and hes really really fast and flexible he got it all and hes in the wrestling team and he could od this fliping shit and all i mean for his size u well think its impossible:mrgreen:

vostok
Jun 09, 2009, 08:23 AM
I'm guessing you've never seen a naked women before have you.

samthor
Jun 09, 2009, 01:14 PM
in my opinion, lifting weights, apart from your own bodyweight, is cheating, does anyone agree with me?


cheating?.. well... no.
but i will say that you should stay away from weight lifting for now.
don't lift more than your body weight until you have finished growing.
really heavy weights could possibly risk joints and bone caps in youth.

the ultimate workout?
i think it should include swimming.

*crap. i just realized this was posted in 2006...

papa48
Jun 11, 2009, 04:20 PM
Medicine balls are ... how to say it... pretty much worthless unless you have to keep little kids and use it as a ball for them to play with =\


I see in a later post that you did indeed confuse a medicine ball with a swiss ball. Your comment about keeping little kids entertained with a swiss ball made me laugh; we have one and I use it to entertain my grandkids by throwing it up the stairwell, hitting the back wall, and having it come bouncing back down the stairs at us. They laugh like crazy at this and papa gets a pretty good workout throwing this ball from a sitting position up the stairs for an hour.

jkdman81
Jun 12, 2009, 02:34 PM
Medicine balls are ... how to say it... pretty much worthless unless you have to keep little kids and use it as a ball for them to play with =\
tell me one good use of a medicine ball?

as for weights I';m not going to criticise you do whatever you want they do help with body weight stuff too


edit - did you mean swiss ball or a weight that's a medicine ball?

MEDICINE BALLS ARE GREAT!!!! YOU JUST NEED TO KNOW HOW TO USE THEM
TRANSVERSE TWIST & THROW IS GREAT EXAMPLE....
DEVELOPS POWER FOR HOOKS